Contact Information

Dr. Sarah Naiman: snaiman@opiniondynamics.com | Dr. Jen Loomis: jloomis@opiniondynamics.com  | Have a topic you’re interested in? Let us know! info@opiniondynamics.com

Transcript

Dr. Sarah Naiman, Senior Consultant: Hi, everyone, and welcome to today’s installment of our Threads of Equity podcast. My name is Sarah Naiman. I’m joined today by Jen Loomis, and we are going to be talking about decarbonization and equity within the work that we do. So do you mind introducing yourself to our listeners?

Dr. Jen Loomis, Principal Consultant: Yeah, thank you, Sarah. My name is Jen Loomis, and I’m a Principal Consultant at Opinion Dynamics, where I study electrification and decarbonization in the built environment.

SN: Thank you. And I am as I mentioned, Sarah Naiman, I am providing the equity lens. I am a Senior Consultant here at Opinion Dynamics and think about the role of equity in various projects, from workforce development to energy efficiency. So weekends, so I think to get started, I know when I started at Opinion Dynamics, I was unfamiliar with some of the energy terms. Jen, could you just share a little bit of background on what decarbonization is and how we started to define it?

JL: Yeah, I’d be happy to. So really, we’re trying to reduce the emissions of Greenhouse Gases. And one way we do that is by replacing end-uses that are powered by natural gas, or propane, or these heavy polluting fuels and replace them with electricity. And electricity can also be made with dirty fuels, right, like coal, but it can also be made with renewable energy, clean energy, like hydro and wind, and solar. And so decarbonization is sort of a two-sided coin: it’s cleaning up the electric grid so that we’re using clean energy, and then transitioning end-uses to electric so that we can take advantage of that clean energy.

SN: Sounds really important as we’re moving forward and trying to tackle, you know, climate change and other big environmental issues.

JL: Indeed, yeah. So, Sarah, what are some ways that we can think about equity and sort of define equity to get us started talking about this?

SN: Yeah, equity is, is, I think, a big topic right now. And within the energy space, whenever we think or even environmental space, but whenever we think about equity, we think about, you know, who has access to desired outcomes, who has access to clean air to breathe, to healthy food to eat, in this case, you might think about who has access to affordable electricity. And so when we think about in the US, or even globally, we see that different populations have certain structures or barriers that limit their access to achieving those outcomes or those desired results. And so with equity, it’s trying to understand, you know, how can we provide resources or… or support for individuals to ensure that they are able to achieve those outcomes. And often, these resources come from government or perhaps nonprofits, depending on different funding sources. So, it’s all about how do we help support communities that have been historically disadvantaged or marginalized an receive less and then again, maybe thinking globally as well. And so, there’s lots of different ways that can be just, you know, how resources are distributed. I think that’s the main thing we think about when we think about equity, but much more prevalent, I think, are some of these, like process-related equity or procedural equity, of who’s involved in the decision-making processes? Is it only corporations or government officials? Do local community members have the ability to voice and participate in these decision-making processes? Are their voices or concerns even recognized and integrated into solutions? So, there’s more of this, this process element that’s important to like, how do we have more equitable solutions in the energy space?

JL: So yeah, thinking beyond income? There’s also things like language, and are you able to access resources in your language in a way you can understand. And then there’s also something really important I found in my research, and that’s the distinction between the urban and rural communities too. Even if you live in a rural environment, and you have money and education and knowledge and know-how, and motivation, you may not be able to find equipment or a contractor who can come to your house. So yeah, so when we think about equity, there’s so many different ways to slice and dice it and it can be about outcomes and resources or people and where they live.

SN: Absolutely. And I think adding, I think you’ve had some really good examples there of like, accessibility right? Like who has access to the information or even to the processes of electrification or, you know, getting a contractor, we can think about technology use or education, educational background, and how technical things are being presented. If you’re saying, you know, ‘hey, we presented to the community, but it’s all in technical jargon’ that someone who may have a high school degree can’t understand, like, that’s really important. Because then that information is not actually accessible to community members to meaningfully engage in the process or even, you know, when meetings are held or when opportunities or webinars are held are they during workdays when individuals can’t attend, especially if they’re working full time. So those are some other things to kind of think about, again, that are more in the process and on the ground with how can we make the process itself more equitable and more inclusive.

JL: That’s a great point. And I think different states have attempted to make formalized definitions of these hard-to-reach or underserved groups. I know one term that I’ve seen used in New York and California is disadvantaged community. And, you know, I think it’s a broad enough term that people could think about a lot of different things and wonder exactly what is taken into account when defining a disadvantaged community. And I’ll just give an example of the way California defines its disadvantaged communities: it actually takes into account a whole host of different variables into a pretty complex numerical weighting scheme and goes way beyond energy burden. It includes environmental factors about the amount of toxins in the air, like the ozone percentile, the potential risk for exposure to lead. It also includes things like the percentage of kids in an area with low birth weight or even who have asthma, and including education and limited English-speaking households. So, it really takes into account a whole socio-economic characteristic of the population. So, it’s a pretty comprehensive way of reading it. And just to be clear, um, so they add up all the scores across all these different factors. And then they take the top 25% of communities that have the highest burdens on these sort of negative factors. And then those top 25% of communities are officially labeled as disadvantaged communities.

SN: That’s way more robust than I have seen in other places. You know, when thinking about I think, traditionally or historically, we’ve talked about predominantly communities of color, low-income communities. And so expanding upon that to think about intersectionality I think it’s so critical, especially since there’s so much overlap, you know, between environmental and social inequities that we see across the US today.

JL: Yeah.

SN: So in terms of California and some of the other work that you’ve done, what are some of the equity-related issues that you’ve seen within the decarbonization space?

JL: Yeah, wow, there’s so many. I’ll just briefly name a few here. So, I guess one of the biggest things I’ve seen is that who has already been electrifying their homes and trying to decarbonize their home environment. In general, we’ve seen it’s people who have a lot of financial resources and educational resources. So those who are well-off and well-to-do have been buying these expensive heat pumps and buying solar panels. And they’re taking advantage of it while those without so many resources are sort of left on the gas system. Another dimension is whether you’re a homeowner or not, renters often can’t make big equipment upgrades in their homes, and therefore they’re limited in the opportunities available to them. There’s also, you know, homes that have a poor building envelope and that are leaky. And so if you did want to electrify and replace that gas furnace with a heat pump, you’re not going to reap the same benefits if you had a better home because all that air that you’re paying to condition is just going to leak out and you’re still going to have disadvantages there. Another thing to consider is the workforce and who’s able to be knowledgeable about this type of equipment and how to replace it and how to upgrade it and fix it. So that’s a big opportunity there to sort of capture folks from these disadvantaged communities – give them an opportunity to join the workforce. And the last thing I’ll mention is, you know, we have policy levers so that we can push to get results. But again, it’s sort of what’s the values of the policymakers. And do they want to promote decarbonization and electrification? Or do they not want to do that? And so that is having implications for who is able to access electrification and decarbonization activities.

SN: That’s what a sort of breadth of issues and thinking about how they’re related not only to one another, but it also sounded like when you were talking about, you know, weatherization, for example, or making sure that individuals are able to capitalize on energy efficiency, those types of aspects that it’s kind of, in tandem, for you know, it, it’s not one solution, but rather like a larger solution, or a larger picture, a larger system to consider.

JL: Yeah, homes are a system and they interact with the air and environment outside and effects the air and environment inside. And yeah, there’s energy and temperature and particulates all transferring back and forth. And it really can take an advanced understanding to get it right.

SN: And in terms of, you know, obviously, I think there’s lots of policies around decarbonization, whether in California or elsewhere. Could you talk a little bit about how you see equity in those policies, if at all, or you know, how they’re being rolled out? Are they integrating community input or community concerns, for example, about costs, or, you know, changes to air quality or energy? What’s been your experience thus far thinking about how policies are kind of rolled down?

JL: Yeah, well, maybe I’ll take a step back, like the role of codes and policies is really critical because they apply to everything, right? There’s no exceptions. Like, if there’s a federal standard on an appliance, no matter who you are, if you buy that type of appliance, you’re going to be getting equipment that meets that minimum. So policy and codes, codes and standards are really important because it’s one way that we can protect renters and the low-income because their landlord is going to buy that cheapest refrigerator or that cheapest washing machine. And so, when we make the minimum code efficient, then that renter is going to benefit from that. So a huge topic right now is the link between natural gas appliances and indoor air quality and how that can affect respiratory diseases for those who are sensitive. And, so we’ve seen some policymakers going in the right direction and trying to do the right thing and limit the amount of natural gas and new construction so that we can try to reduce these rates of respiratory illnesses. But you know, it’s really interesting, because not everybody is in agreement on this topic. And in some ways, it sort of reflects the divided America that we have right now, where some people see that as overstepping, and it’s not fair and not right. And if I want to have natural gas in my home, I should have that freedom and that right to do that. So while we are seeing some policymakers moving in the direction of limiting gas, we’re also seeing other policymakers doing pre-emptive laws to prevent exactly that type of action. So, they’re saying you cannot restrict this; people should be able to have this if they want it. So you know, to get to your question about who’s involved in this participatory process of making laws, I think I see some of these laws being a little more top-down. I haven’t seen a lot of community engagement and community input around these things. But I do think that also differs based on the community. Getting back to what I was saying earlier, some of these communities with higher levels of education and income are able to participate and voice their concerns a little more than those who might be working two jobs and having to care for two kids at home.

SN: Yeah, that sort of background situation. And I know some of the work that I’ve done around civic engagement, you know, who was able to volunteer or, you know, donate money. And it looks different, based off of income, education, background of, you know, what is socially acceptable within someone’s community or ethnic background as well. So, it’s really interesting to think about that as well. Right? Like, who has sort of been trained and how to participate in this way and feel comfortable and basis versus those who Yeah, that’s time resources or even just experience.

JL: Yeah, and you know, you brought up the idea of like, cultural sensitivity and so one hot topic and decarbonization is these gas stoves and the suggested replacement for them are induction cooktops. induction is an electric technology that is highly efficient. But it does require a certain type of pan to be used on the cooktop. And notorious case for this is that induction cooktops are not compatible with woks, largely because of the shape of the wok. And so, if somebody, you know, has grown up their whole life cooking with woks and wants to continue doing that, and a lawmaker says, No, you have to go with electric, you can’t have this gas, you know, that could be really damaging to them and cause a lot of conflict and strife in their life. So, it is a question of whether how much your government can tell people what to do in some cases.

SN: It’s interesting, too, because there’s obviously this government piece with policy; there’s the consumer. And then I’m wondering what role manufacturers or, you know, evolving technologies around induction stovetops, or other technologies are taking into account some of these concerns as well, right, like they can improve the design, potentially, I’m no engineer, take that with a grain of salt. But, you know, integrate important uses, or if there’s, you know, key elements that that consumers are looking for, what role to manufacturers sort of play in this, if at all?

JL: Yeah. So it seems like manufacturers are a little resistant to change and increasing efficiency. Whenever the government asks them to sort of make it more efficient or water efficient, they can sometimes push back and say, “No, we’ve taken technology as far as we can.” But then, you know, years in the future, they manage to have some innovation that does allow them to do it. So. So manufacturers are an important player in this game. And they definitely have a role to play and kind of similar to the codes and standards argument. They’re a really critical piece of this. Because if they’re able to make their equipment electric or efficient, then that’s just going to benefit anybody in the market buying their products.

SN: And I wanted to kind of circle back I know, you had talked about, you know, the urban versus rural communities that that’s also something to consider as well. And I know we talked about renters and some of the specific hurdles that might be there in terms of, you know, not really having the ability to make decisions about your place of living, but in rural communities, what are some of the things that are hurdles or barriers to decarbonization?

JL: Sure, yeah, so there’s a few different barriers, I’m thinking of,,, the building characteristics of the building stock. The homes may be older, or leakier, or have less insulation. And so you know, increase the heating and cooling load needed to keep the home comfortable. And then maybe few contractors to choose from. And so maybe you get a contractor who doesn’t know anything about heat pumps or doesn’t know where to source a heat pump. And then you’re really sort of out of luck, you know, maybe you could buy one online, but if you don’t know how to install it, and you can’t find a licensed contractor to do it, you may be out of luck totally. And then sometimes, you know, there’s specialized equipment, people will need like spray foam insulation or a blower door test equipment. And, you know, if that equipment is not in your area, you just don’t have access to it to get these jobs done. Or even, you know, trying to go solar or put a battery in, it’s critical to have access to the workforce and the equipment because they’re the linchpin in all of this, ‘cause contractors are businessmen, and they need to make money and they need to make decisions and there may not be willing to drive two hours out for one job. An interesting solution to that, though, that we’ve seen is when neighbors and community members can get together. And if you can get a few of them who all want to get solar panels or all want to get spray foam insulation, they can sort of band together and reach out to a contractor company and say, “Look, if you drive out here, we got six jobs lined up for you.” And so we have seen success with that model.

SN: It’s sort of like this collective action in some ways, incentivizing based off of the need to make money in the market and understanding that that can be a barrier to servicing our community.

JL: Yeah.

SN: And I think the final question that I have for you is really thinking about you said, you know, the workforce is such a critical piece in this. And so in terms of, of workforce development and thinking about, you know, which communities have local workers, do you see significant differences in sort of who has access to that?

JL: Yeah, well, looking at the trades is a really interesting view. Because I grew up in the generation that was always told, “you gotta go to college.” And I think we’re really seeing a big tidal shift in this thinking now that we need workers who work with their hands, who can work in the buildings and upgrade the stock that everybody is living in and working in day-to-day. So, I just see so much growing importance on really what’s going to be like climate champions and a workforce that really helps save the world. And so… so what’s been interesting about the trades is so many people get into them because their family was in it. You know, “my dad worked on furnaces. So that’s what I’m doing.” So, I think, you know, one of the biggest things confronting our society in the near future is getting more and more workers to participate in the trades that’ll do electrical work, do HVAC work, do plumbing work, and we just need so many more workers. You know, when I am studying the market for heat pumps, which are a critical clean energy technology for decarbonization, I often hear of homeowners needing to call up to four different contractors just to find one who will install a heat pump for them. And this has to change, we have got to get more workers out there willing to install these decarbonization and clean energy technologies. Sarah, from your understanding who is participating in the workforce for a clean energy economy and are there groups you would like to see grow and their participation?

SN: I think it kind of goes to, you know, the broader trade. And, you know, I’ve done interviews with a broad spectrum of individuals, some who participate in, you know, apprenticeship programs or fellowship programs, internship programs to see, you know, if they are interested in the trades, to your point of, you know, trying to spark that interest, particularly from use, I think, is where I’ve seen a lot of the effort, right, and thinking about that cultural shift of ya know, are the trades and acceptable occupation in our society. And I think this need and this demand can make that case, it is hard work. And I think that’s a big barrier to participation in some ways, depending on the type of work that’s being done. But what’s really interesting about the trades as well is there are a lot of inequities in who participates in that workforce. And as you said, you know, there is somewhat of a, of a heritage or connection, whether that’s family or friends or other community members, but historically, it’s, it’s predominantly white men. And so, there are some efforts in order to diversify the workforce. I know, there’s, you know, governments and utilities that are putting funding into that trying to, you know, accelerate that workforce development in the clean energy space. And in some ways, that’s wonderful. But there’s a lot of structural barriers and lots of things that I think need to be addressed within the contractors themselves or socially, right of, are you putting someone in a business where they will be able to thrive? Or are you putting them in a business where the owners of the business believe that women don’t work as hard as men? I think there’s a lot of growth can happen there. There’s a lot of opportunity. And I think it’s important to not only think about training the workforce, but also ensuring that the opportunities that are available are inclusive and welcoming, and really focusing on… I know, this is like kind of a buzz term right now, but thinking really about diversity, equity, inclusion, and justice. How do you make sure that individuals have a sense of belonging that any barriers to promotion are addressed so that there aren’t glass ceilings for women or people of color. I think all of those are really important to think about when we’re thinking about the workforce and the clean energy space. I remember speaking to someone who said, the energy industry, it’s really unjust, it’s inequitable. And if we keep building the solutions on an inequitable system, the foundation, then it’s just continued to be inequitable. So, in some ways, there’s a need to make some real structural change to how we approach energy solutions, as well as workforce development going forward. Which is.. that’s a big ask. It’s a big, big bite to tackle.

JL: Yeah, but I mean, a really valid point, you know, we want people to get in these jobs, but they need to also feel comfortable and supported in those jobs.

SN: Absolutely. I mean, it you need the retention, right. Eventually, you’ll need people at the journey level who are pros at what they do to train the next generation. And if we have that bottleneck than that, that’s obviously a serious barrier to moving forward with clean energy solutions.

JL: Yeah, we need so many new workers in this field, California and others have goals. Their heat pump goals are so ambitious that when you calculate like the number of existing buildings and the number of heat pumps they want installed,.. it’s like we need to be installing 100 heat pumps a day, every single day, including weekends on holidays, like if we’re going to meet these targets. And you know, so you can imagine like how far behind we are and how quickly we need to get workers to help in this decarbonization space.

SN: And so, from your perspective, what are programs doing to help, you know with equity and decarbonization, and know you mentioned goals? Are there specific aspects that have been successful that you’ve seen from your experience?

JL: Yeah, yeah, actually. So, the good news is there are programs that are focusing specifically on this. And, you know, one of the biggest ways I’ve seen this happening is literally just throwing money at it, like, let’s put millions of dollars towards incentives that go to the end-user to help lower the cost of this equipment. And importantly, some of these programs have goals that are earmarked and targeted towards these disadvantaged communities or hard-to-reach communities. And I have a colleague who likes to say this phrase, she says, “what gets measured gets done.” And so, the important thing there is we need to have goals and metrics and targets around these disadvantaged communities or around, you know, however you define that equity metric. And so, when programs in their design, incorporate these types of goals, then people measure them and start counting how many homes and zip codes associated with disadvantaged communities have you targeted. And I think one of the most important ways we can ensure that resources and activity and benefits are going to disadvantaged folks, is by ensuring that programs have goals tied to that.

SN: I was just gonna build off of what you just said about the importance of measurement and metrics. And I think something that really sticks out to me is that intentionality, right, that equity can’t happen unless we’re very intentional about the actions that we’re taking. If we kind of leave things to the status quo, inequities will continue to be perpetuated than this system within all systems. And so really first being like, where are we starting from? Where are we trying to go? And along the way, how are we doing it? Are we integrating the concerns or the viewpoints of the people who are being affected? Or who were trying to have benefit from these programs? Are they providing us with ways that we can make our programs better or improve the relevance of it for the communities of interest? And I think that metric aspects is so critical, not only to figure out what gets measured gets done, I think data is such a powerful tool for decision-making and policies and funding. But also, you know, who’s involved in identifying what’s getting measured, or what’s important to the community. And I think integrating that participatory process and getting feedback and collaborating with community members in meaningful ways, in order to co-design solutions, I think is really critical to being open to, you know, developing more equitable solutions going forward.

JL: Yeah, and you know, something else we haven’t talked about yet, but I think is really important is that potentially, electrification may not be for everybody. And what I’m specifically referring to is the operating cost in some communities, natural gas is that much cheaper than electricity, that if even though Heat pumps are really efficient if we switched a customer to electric end-use, that cost of electricity may mean that their bills are going up on a monthly basis. And that is the last thing we want for anybody, let alone a low-income or disadvantaged person. So, I think at the same time, it’s really important that programs pay attention to the financial impacts of electrification for households and make sure that any household that chooses to electrify is going to be in a better off place in the end than they were before.

SN: Absolutely. And I think it comes back to policies in some way. And I think a lot about, you know, how do we address inequities in the long term or on a broad scale? And a lot of it comes down to structural or political change. Right. And if those considerations are kind of worked into program design or worked into legislation, that’s being passed or consideration. I think that, at least in the US seems to be where, you know, a lot of the progress can be made. Obviously, as you mentioned earlier, like we have the political divide in terms of, you know, overstepping, or, you know, what level of aid is the government responsible for. But I think, again, it goes back to intentionality and being very intentional with how things are designed, how they’ll be measured, what impact are they going to have? And what can we do better next time? How can we better support those who are the most affected by climate change by… by poverty by lack of educational opportunities, those types of things that all intersects? And so we’re constantly thinking, how do we help support that is not able to achieve the same outcome? I think we’ll, we’ll see much better results across the board.

JL: Yeah, nicely said.

SN: Do you have any sort of final thoughts on how we move in trying to have more equitable solutions or where decarbonization as a field is sort of going?

JL: Yeah, I guess it really seems important that programs and their resources and their financial incentives should be ear-marked and targeted for those who have fewer financial means because those who have high education and high income are often excited about electrification and are able to do that on their own. And where we really need stimulation and support is for the low-income, low-resourced folks, And electrification and decarbonization are critical towards fighting climate change and we know we need to get moving on that. So, in the same time it’s important that programs are focused on those who are less likely to get this stuff done and help support and educate and motive them.

SN: Well said. Well, thank you for taking the time to share your experiences around the decarbonization space. And thanks to all of you who have listened to this episode of Threads of Equity. We will catch you at the next one!

JL: Thank you, Sarah!

End music.